Thursday 3 July 2014

LST Interview With Dr Richard Schwartz

LST Counselling Exclusive Interview:
Dr Richard Schwartz on Internal Family Systems


Irene Davies (I)
Richard Schwartz (R)

I: Richard, we have had a wonderful two days with you at LST and I’m sure that you must be exhausted, but just one more question for the sake of our website…

R: I’m actually not exhausted as I get energy when I get a really good audience - a really receptive audience.

I: That’s great – and what do you think about the enthusiasm shown for IFS training here, at LST?

R: It’s very exciting, I told the people that I would be involved and that’s very unusual, as I don’t do that sort of thing anymore. So if you get enough people then we’ll make it happen.

I: That would be absolutely amazing, thank you. So, may I ask, how do you think IFS works with a Christian perspective?

R: I found people resonating and seeing aspects of the fit [IFS from a Christian perspective] that I didn’t see, quoting pieces of scripture that fit with what I was saying, which was exciting to me. I don’t feel attached to a religious school as I try to make clear, and at the same time for me, probably more than any prophet, Jesus embodied what I call Self-Leadership and is a model for that. From what I know of Jesus, in particular his going to the exiles and the culture with love and honouring them and washing their feet – that is a direct parallel to what Self naturally does inside of people … to go to these parts which have been exiled with the same acceptance and healing. So that’s one aspect that’s totally compatible, and I wasn’t even thinking about that until I went to Mississippi and William Richardson pointed it out to me.

I: That was at the Christian conference?

R: Yes – this idea that man is created in the image of God and what I’m calling Self might be that image, or it might even be God, or a piece of God, or however you want to think about it, which accounts for why it’s never damaged no matter how bad the trauma. That was the biggest thing when I encountered it, that I couldn’t account for it using Science. That’s what made me leap to the spiritual side.

I: So can I clarify that as a Christian believes that people are made in the image of God, I think you are saying that that Self also might image God.

R: Yes, this might be what you are calling ‘the image of God’ within the Self, covered over by these burdens. As we unburden, people become more soulful I guess, or lead by whatever you want to call that, if it’s the soul or Christ’s consciousness.
I: One last question if I may: I think you said that Jesus was a model of Self-Leadership, so for the people coming on the website who haven’t been to this conference can you say a little bit about what Self-Leadership is.

R: So when I can achieve that [Self-Leadership] with a client and when I have them open to the Self that immediately comes forward … people manifest these c-word qualities that include ‘curiosity’ and ‘confidence’ but also ‘compassion’ which I think was a big aspect of Jesus. Another is ‘connectedness’ – the sense that we are not separate, that we are all connected to God and to each other. Those are all qualities that I find automatically to manifest not just in Christians, but in anybody who accesses this state. Also, ‘courage’ – Jesus was a model for courage in various ways – he stood up to the moneychangers in the temple and was very courageous in the crucifixion and so on. Others qualities are ‘clarity’, ‘connectedness’, ‘creativity’ – all these qualities that seem to manifest spontaneously in people, Jesus embodied at a certain level. I don’t call myself a Christian, my ethnicity or my cultural religious tradition is Judaism, but I was never really trained in it. Therefore without having answers already, I am left more curious. I have never studied intra-psychic processes really, and that left me without presumption about what parts were there when I encountered them. I just was curious and I had to trust my clients’ reports rather than make these assumptions about what they must be. So I feel like I was blessed in a way to not be indoctrinated by religion or psychotherapy before I met the phenomena.

I: I understand.

R: And then I kind of pieced together a spirituality of my own, and after that I couldn’t deny that there were spiritual elements to this work I was doing.

I: A spirituality of your own that incorporates Jesus – because I’ve heard you say that he frequently shows up in the counselling room?

R: Yeah as I say, I’m a big fan of Jesus, I just don’t think he’s ‘the only’, which makes a bit of a difference …. and I don’t think that unless you are re-born that you don’t have Self, which I am afraid some people believe … so that’s the only difference really ….

I: So although our theologies aren’t entirely the same, I want to really thank you for being willing to come here and debate with this approach, which you have given the therapeutic world, from a Christian perspective, and for your openness. I think we have been really enriched by it.

R: Thanks, I feel the same, I think I said that it’s been a corrective experience in some ways as there have been experiences with Christians that haven’t been as respectful. I felt thoroughly respected – even with the disagreements – and I think a lot of that is how much people respect you, Irene, and your embracing of this that transfers onto me, so again I throw the gratitude back to you.


I: Thank you so much, we are really honoured, and yes please come back I’m going to try and set some training up.