LST Counselling Exclusive Interview:
Dr Richard Schwartz on Internal Family Systems
Irene Davies (I)
Richard Schwartz (R)
I:
Richard, we have had a wonderful two days with you at LST and I’m sure that you must
be exhausted, but just one more question for the sake of our website…
R:
I’m actually not exhausted as I get energy when I get a really good audience -
a really receptive audience.
I:
That’s great – and what do you think about the enthusiasm shown for IFS training
here, at LST?
R:
It’s very exciting, I told the people that I would be involved and that’s very
unusual, as I don’t do that sort of thing anymore. So if you get enough people
then we’ll make it happen.
I: That
would be absolutely amazing, thank you. So, may I ask, how do you think IFS
works with a Christian perspective?
R: I
found people resonating and seeing aspects of the fit [IFS from a Christian
perspective] that I didn’t see, quoting pieces of scripture that fit with what
I was saying, which was exciting to me. I don’t feel attached to a religious
school as I try to make clear, and at the same time for me, probably more than
any prophet, Jesus embodied what I call Self-Leadership and is a model for
that. From what I know of Jesus, in particular his going to the exiles and the
culture with love and honouring them and washing their feet – that is a direct
parallel to what Self naturally does inside of people … to go to these parts
which have been exiled with the same acceptance and healing. So that’s one
aspect that’s totally compatible, and I wasn’t even thinking about that until I
went to Mississippi and William Richardson pointed it out to me.
I:
That was at the Christian conference?
R:
Yes – this idea that man is created in the image of God and what I’m calling
Self might be that image, or it might even be God, or a piece of God, or
however you want to think about it, which accounts for why it’s never damaged
no matter how bad the trauma. That was the biggest thing when I encountered it,
that I couldn’t account for it using Science. That’s what made me leap to the
spiritual side.
I:
So can I clarify that as a Christian believes that people are made in the image
of God, I think you are saying that that Self also might image God.
R:
Yes, this might be what you are calling ‘the image of God’ within the Self,
covered over by these burdens. As we unburden, people become more soulful I
guess, or lead by whatever you want to call that, if it’s the soul or
Christ’s consciousness.
I:
One last question if I may: I think you said that Jesus was a model of
Self-Leadership, so for the people coming on the website who haven’t been to
this conference can you say a little bit about what Self-Leadership is.
R:
So when I can achieve that [Self-Leadership] with a client and when I have them
open to the Self that immediately comes forward … people manifest these c-word
qualities that include ‘curiosity’ and ‘confidence’ but also ‘compassion’ which
I think was a big aspect of Jesus. Another is ‘connectedness’ – the sense that
we are not separate, that we are all connected to God and to each other. Those
are all qualities that I find automatically to manifest not just in Christians,
but in anybody who accesses this state. Also, ‘courage’ – Jesus was a model for
courage in various ways – he stood up to the moneychangers in the temple and
was very courageous in the crucifixion and so on. Others qualities are
‘clarity’, ‘connectedness’, ‘creativity’ – all these qualities that seem to
manifest spontaneously in people, Jesus embodied at a certain level. I don’t
call myself a Christian, my ethnicity or my cultural religious tradition is
Judaism, but I was never really trained in it. Therefore without having answers
already, I am left more curious. I have never studied intra-psychic processes
really, and that left me without presumption about what parts were there when I
encountered them. I just was curious and I had to trust my clients’ reports
rather than make these assumptions about what they must be. So I feel like I
was blessed in a way to not be indoctrinated by religion or psychotherapy
before I met the phenomena.
I: I
understand.
R:
And then I kind of pieced together a spirituality of my own, and after that I
couldn’t deny that there were spiritual elements to this work I was
doing.
I: A
spirituality of your own that incorporates Jesus – because I’ve heard you say
that he frequently shows up in the counselling room?
R:
Yeah as I say, I’m a big fan of Jesus, I just don’t think he’s ‘the only’,
which makes a bit of a difference …. and I don’t think that unless you are
re-born that you don’t have Self, which I am afraid some people believe … so that’s
the only difference really ….
I:
So although our theologies aren’t entirely the same, I want to really thank you
for being willing to come here and debate with this approach, which you have
given the therapeutic world, from a Christian perspective, and for your
openness. I think we have been really enriched by it.
R:
Thanks, I feel the same, I think I said that it’s been a corrective experience
in some ways as there have been experiences with Christians that haven’t been
as respectful. I felt thoroughly respected – even with the disagreements – and
I think a lot of that is how much people respect you, Irene, and your embracing
of this that transfers onto me, so again I throw the gratitude back to you.
I: Thank
you so much, we are really honoured, and yes please come back I’m going to try
and set some training up.
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